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Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

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Mrs. Pheonix, Buki and McCarty

Post by Karen on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 3:40

The day after Mary Jane Kelly's murder, a woman named Mrs. Elizabeth Phoenix of 57 Bow Common Lane, Burdett Road, Bow, went into the Leman Street Police Station and stated that a woman matching the description of Kelly used to live in her brother-in-law's house in Breezer's Hill, off Pennington Street.
Kelly also lodged with a Mrs. Carthy at Breezer's Hill shortly after arriving in London.
I was doing a bit of research with the 1881 Census to see what I could find on Mrs. Carthy/Carty or Mrs. Elizabeth Phoenix and found a couple of interesting facts:

1.) In 1881, a woman named Mrs. Mary McCarty, born in County Cork, Ireland was living at 138 Pennington Street, St. George in the East (see below).

1881 census - address transcription
Address: 138, Pennington St, St George In The East

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

775 EUSTACE, Eliza Head Widow F 50 1831 Laundress
Dublin, Ireland

775 POVIS, Maria Boarder Single F 57 1824 Servant Domestic
Ireland

775 CALLAHAN, C Boarder Single F 20 1861 Servant (Out Of Employ)
St Georges E, Middlesex

775 TAYLOR, Cisty M Nurse Child Single F 0 1881
Dublin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

776 HALL, D Head Married M 20 1861 Stationers Porter
Stepney, Middlesex

776 HALL, Sarah Wife Married F 18 1863
St Georges, Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

777 MC CARTY, John Head Married M 46 1835 Dock Laborer
Cork, Ireland

777 MC CARTY, Mary Wife Married F 32 1849
Cork, Ireland


777 MATTHEWS, Jane Boarder Single F 68 1813 Laundress
St George in the East

Address:138, Pennington St, St George In The East
County:Middlesex

2.) Then I found something even more interesting. In 1881, there was no Elizabeth Phoenix living at 57 Bow Common Lane, but at 257 Bow Common Lane was living a family of Kelly's, and the most interesting female in the house was Louisa Mary, born in 1863. Also, Mary Jane was reported to have stated to one of her friends that she had an older sister who was respectable and as you can see below, that would have been Rachael Louisa, who was a warehouse assistant manager.

1881 census - address transcription
Address: 257, Bow Common Lane, Mile End Old Town
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1713 KELLY, Rachael Head Widow F 55 1826
Woodstock, Oxfordshire

1713 KELLY, Edwin Richd Son Single M 31 1850 Merchants Clerk
St Lukes, Middlesex

1713 KELLY, Rachael Louisa Daughter Single F 26 1855 Warehouse Assistant (Man)
Bethnal GN, Middlesex

1713 KELLY, Fredk Wm Son Single M 22 1859 Stationers Assistant
Bethnal GN, Middlesex

1713 KELLY, Louisa Mary Daughter Single F 18 1863 Warehouse Assistant
Bromley, Middlesex


1713 KELLY, Ada Elizth Daughter Single F 14 1867 Warehouse Assistant
Bromley, Middlesex

1713 KELLY, Emily Sister In Law Single F 48 1833
Clerkenwell, Middlesex

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Parish:
Mile End Old Town Municipal Borough:
Address: 257, Bow Common Lane, Mile End Old Town
County: Middlesex

3.) Lastly, I found Mrs. Buki living at 93 St. George's Street in the 1881 Census. Somewhere on the premises was a marine store, so could Mary Jane have worked as a shop girl in this marine store as soon as she arrived in London? (see below)

1881 census - address transcription
Address: 93, Marine Store, St Georges St, St George In The East
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

759 MORRIS, Bynes Daughter Head Single F 25 1856 Ass Pickle Factory
St Georges, Middlesex

759 MORRIS, Selina Sister Single F 18 1863 Pipe Varnisher
St Georges, Middlesex

759 MORRIS, Ellen Daughter Single F 0 1881
St Georges, Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

760 CROWLEY, James Head Married M 34 1847 Dock Laborer
Cork, Ireland

760 CROWLEY, Bridget Wife Married F 34 1847
Cork, Ireland

760 CROWLEY, Michael Son Single M 15 1866 Rope Work Laborer
Whitechapel, Middlesex

760 CROWLEY, Mary Daughter Single F 13 1868 None
Whitechapel, Middlesex

760 CROWLEY, Timothy Son Single M 10 1871 Scholar
Whitechapel, Middlesex

760 CROWLEY, Patrick Son Single M 4 1877 Scholar
Whitechapel, Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

761 BUCKINGHAM, William Head Married M 30 1851 Woodchopper
Hackney, Middlesex

761 BUCKINGHAM, Mary Wife Married F 20 1861 Woodchopper
Whitechapel, Middlesex


761 BUCKINGHAM, Mary Daughter Single F 1 1880
Bethnal Green, Middlesex

761 DOYLE, Charles Nep Single M 9 1872 Scholar
Whitechapel, Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

762 QUILL, John Head Married M 38 1843 Coal Knapper
Ireland

762 QUILL, Mary A Wife Married F 32 1849
Shadwell, Middlesex

762 QUILL, James Son Single M 13 1868 Errand Boy
Shadwell, Middlesex

762 QUILL, Margaret Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar
Shadwell, Middlesex

762 QUILL, William Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar
Shadwell, Middlesex

762 QUILL, John Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar
Shadwell, Middlesex

762 QUILL, Patrick Son Single M 2 1879
Shadwell, Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Parish:
St George in the East Municipal Borough:
Address:93, Marine Store, St Georges St, St George In The East
County: Middlesex

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Guest on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 16:28

Have you got a maiden name for McCarty?

I believe these three women are the only possibilities for finding a link to the West end where we don't have names from the witnesses to follow up on.

Guest
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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Mr Hyde on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 1:48

Best bet is Marriages...Cork,Ireland.

There was a Simeon McCarty at 141 Pennington Street at that time.

Edit.
 
As far as time lines back to the West End....

 look at Hutchinson,a groom who had known Mary for three years.

 As previously mentioned,he had nautical training as a lad.

 Not a lot of use for horses on a training ship.

 Lot of tidiness,presentation,personal cleaning,etc.

 Perhaps he worked as a personal groom....sorta like a batman (incorrect term).

 Mary Kelly's West End house has been described as a "Gay House". Words like "queer" were changing.

 Maybe she was hired as a receptionist,PR,etc. Hence the dresses.

 1885.

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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Saponarolla on Thu 4 Feb 2016 - 21:23

Grant Fenwick (Casebook Mar 23, 2005)
If this meesage board is still running, I am Thomas Morgansterns great great grandson. I have heard a story that Wilhelmina, when she was a child, was brought up in a brothel in Limehouse. The marriage mentioned in 1897 was my great grandmother in Limehouse who married Thomas Fenwick.


Last edited by Saponarolla on Sat 6 Feb 2016 - 17:06; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 6 Feb 2016 - 1:57

Still running.

Don't always post.

Most interesting.

Your surname is linked to the Morning Star and a weapon.

Anchoring Mary Kelly to a time frame is my go.

Mr Hyde

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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Saponarolla on Sat 6 Feb 2016 - 17:12

Fenwick (verb) - The act of creeping or stalking a person in an open and obvious way (such as standing literally 4 feet away, standing in an open spot to stare). Known as fenwicking.

I was wondering if it was connected to Phoenix as well, not just the landlady but the surname. Funny that Adrianus' daughter Wilhelmina Christina would marry a Fenwick, and Adrianus would live with Elizabeth Phoenix.


Last edited by Saponarolla on Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 11:56; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Saponarolla on Mon 8 Feb 2016 - 18:27

Phoenix Name MeaningNorthern English and Scottish: fanciful alteration of Fenwick, under the influence of classical mythology.Canadian French: variant of Phénix (see Phenix). (Ancestry)

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Re: Mrs. Pheonix and Mrs. McCarty

Post by Saponarolla on Mon 8 Feb 2016 - 18:36

I calculate the odds of an Australian Ancestry member getting a cousin match with a Morgenstern Pedigree as about 1 in 6000.

Most of the cousins are American. I round off to about 10000 Morgensterns with the name in the U.S. Multiply by 10 for those with Morgenstern DNA. (.2 percent of the world are Jewish but 2 percent in a DNA database, who didn't know they were Askenazi, were, so 10 times more.)
1 in 3000 with Morgenstern DNA in America so rounded out to about 50/50 out of about 2000 cousin matches.

Let's say 3000 with Morgenstern DNA in Australia so about 1 in 3000 that the one Australian would have it.

1/3000 x 1/2 = 1/6000

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