Books




Face of Winifred May Davies
Latest topics
» Why Jesus Is Not God
Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 19:34 by Karen

» Allah, The Real Serpent of the Garden
Tue 7 Mar 2017 - 11:45 by Karen

» THE INNOCENCE OF JEWS
Sat 4 Mar 2017 - 12:06 by Karen

» Hillary Clinton (Hillroy Was Here)
Fri 28 Oct 2016 - 17:38 by Karen

» Alien on the Moon
Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 21:57 by Karen

» Martian Nonsense Repeats Itself
Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 18:43 by Karen

» Enlil and Enki
Fri 7 Oct 2016 - 17:11 by Karen

» Israel Shoots Down Drone - Peter Kucznir's Threat
Wed 24 Aug 2016 - 22:55 by Karen

» Rome is Babylon
Sun 24 Jul 2016 - 21:27 by Karen

» Barak Obama
Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 10:47 by Karen

Links












Gallery



Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Fri 31 May 2013 - 17:04

In May 2008, I started this thread on Hoax Museum called The Roslyn Hoax (Roslyn with one S as in Roslyn D'Onston).

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/6776/

Using the Davinci Code model, I presented a cover-up of the existence and identity of the secret offspring of Mary Jane Kelly and prominent Freemason, Sir Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert and Sullivan. I had a candidate for the offspring, a man born in England around 1884 whose mother was indeed named Mary Jane Kelly and who claimed his father was named Arthur Sullivan.

https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2009-December/001171.html

The conspiracy could not be debunked until a birth record turned up last year to prove the man in question was born in 1887 when Mary Kelly would have already been in the East End living with Joseph Barnett. However, I do believe the man could still be the son of the real Mary Kelly. The father could still be anyone.

And Mary Kelly is still a good subject for Conspiracy Theorists and Holy "Grailers", one that doesn't impugn a religion. I consider this one subject in Ripperology that is boring-proof!


Last edited by Dr.O on Tue 6 Aug 2013 - 22:23; edited 4 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Sat 1 Jun 2013 - 13:36

My question to Karen and all, regarding this topic, is:

What do you think of the Ripperologist faction using the word "hoax" to describe suspect theorist/author's advocacy of Roslyn D'Onston as Jack the Ripper?

Does the use of Roslyn's tall tales of black magic and murder in their suspect books constitute a willful hoax?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Karen on Sat 1 Jun 2013 - 17:37

Now, although I admit that Roslyn Donston Stephenson does make a very interesting candidate for Jack the Ripper, I have to say that the theory has been debunked numerous times by several researchers who discovered that Donston was in fact in the London Hospital during the Ripper skein. Just because Donston wrote a few letters to the newspapers does not make him a Ripper suspect - he was simply bored (having spent only 4 consecutive days in hospital myself in the past, I know how boring it can be inside the hospital when you are too sick and in pain to leave).

Having said that, I really wish individuals would stop perpetuating these "theories" just to engage in conversation about the Ripper as it makes it exceedingly difficult to release these unfortunate "suspects" from the stifling grip of accusation. Too many individuals have been dragged through the mud and blood as it is with regards to these ghastly, useless crimes.

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
avatar
Karen
Admin

Posts : 4899

View user profile http://victorianripper.niceboard.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Sun 2 Jun 2013 - 0:04

I, personally, have stopped perpetuating the Mary Kelly/Arthur Sullivan theory because it is essentially debunked. It was never intended to be a hoax although it ended up being somewhat of one. Not a total loss though.

As for besmirching someone's reputation, Sullivan scholars were nonplussed at the notion of Sullivan having a child with a prostitute even though he was a known patron of prostitutes, who lived in the West end and went to Paris at the same time as MJK allegedly did.

I don't feel I dragged him through the mud. There may indeed have even been a liason but it did not produce a child.

Now, on suspect theorizing, while I can understand the idea of choosing to go from evidence to suspect with JTR rather than bringing a suspect to the evidence, I don't see that being the case when trying to identify MJK.

Ripperologists are going from the evidence to the candidate but the evidence is not the same as in the murders. The reports are second-hand. The evidence of who she was and where she came from are questionable at best, and probably falsehoods, and real information about her is almost non-existant.

It's best to find a candidate and take her to the evidence. If descendants have a problem with their ancestor being accused of being a murdered prostitute, that's their problem.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Karen on Sun 2 Jun 2013 - 19:41

Dr. O:

Believe me, I know exactly how you feel and I am now not that sure that Mary Jane Kelly/O'Brien was a prostitute.

This "prostitute" label has been used before in the ancient past.

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
avatar
Karen
Admin

Posts : 4899

View user profile http://victorianripper.niceboard.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Tue 4 Jun 2013 - 23:25

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4925/12896.html

Even if Roslyn is debunked as a suspect, his candidacy produced results in modern  unsolved true crime. That's where I find value and validity.

I can understand not wanting to open the field to non-conventional ideas if you have a final solution to the case and want to promote the truth as you see it, but other sites consider the case unsolved and even unsolvable but reject outright "interesting" and non-mainstream ideas and suspects. That, to me, makes no sense whatsoever....


Last edited by Dr.O on Sun 11 Aug 2013 - 19:24; edited 1 time in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 13:19

Karen wrote:As for Mary Jane's background, it was also unromantic - she ran afoul of her family in Ireland, had to leave her home and people, live in abject poverty in the East End, raise a young son alone, and then finally end up in Canada (where her descendants still live to this day.)

From "Life of Mary Kelly" thread, bold mine
In my opinion, there is far more evidence (and greater likelihood) for Mary Jane Kelly having a child and having one with a celebrated person. I can't understand why Ripperology would reject that angle out of hand, with Dan Brown making billions on a less-likely bloodline.

Any ideas on who the father might be, Karen? It's always fun to speculate on this. I have pictures of Liverpool MJK's sons and have tried to match the face of the youngest to contemporary male figures in Victorian London.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:29

Ever considered the Mary Ann Kelly may have borne Jack the Ripper's child out of wedlock in a previous decade?

Would give some credence to the Providence Row rumour.Also to a change of religion to RC from C of E.

Our Jack was not the anonymous random serial killer that most people purport.

He was well known personally to at least four of his blackmailers.
Three of them for over twenty years.
Annie Chapman may have met him.She certainly knew who he was.

You will possibly find one of Mary's older brothers,Henry,working in Glamorgan as an accountant for a coppermine.

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:47

Hello Mr Hyde,

I have defninitely considered Mary Jane Kelly having a child as far as 1881 or even earlier. I think Mary was in her mid twenties at that time rather than still in her teens.

By "Providence Row rumour", do you mean the rumour that Mary was the reason for the whole thing?


Last edited by Dr.O on Tue 13 Aug 2013 - 17:32; edited 4 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 23:33

Mary Ann Kelly most likely alerted her neighbour Chapman first,concerning "Jack's" secret life.She was 29 years of age.Quite possibly the prostitute in the 1881 Census.
Chapman told Nichols and Eddowes,who had a somewhat different viewpoint of "Jack",having only known him since 1867.
The first murder was after Eddowes departure for some hop picking.
Her return was partly a result of the second murder.
Eddowes and Stride,possibly with the enlistment of an army sapper,attempted a payoff at Berner Street.
Eddowes was detained.
On her release,she headed for "Jack's" bolt hole.Probably 6 Mitre Street.

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Karen on Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 9:44

Personally, I think that the father of Mary Jane Kellys child was someone very important - someone like Prince Albert Victor or Prince Albert Edward (Eddies father).

The father would have had to have been someone extremely important for the murderer to have gone to the extremes that he did. Plus, police reports and inquest records state that there was an unwanted pregnancy involved in the murder at Millers Court. So, that means that someone staying in that room was expecting a child. Perhaps it was the Collis woman.

If Mary Jane had a child, that child would have been 8-10 years old in 1888 because many newspaper accounts have stated this.

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
avatar
Karen
Admin

Posts : 4899

View user profile http://victorianripper.niceboard.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 19:58

Kindly accept my apology as I was directing attention to the Providence Row rumour.
The case partially dates back to the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 and Section 11 of it,commonly known as the Labouchere Amendment.
Note how Mary Kelly "reappears" in London soon after.
"Jack" had been involved with a paedophile ring.Most likely supplying it with sedating drugs.There was an urban myth about it at the time.No doubt,the inspiration for RL Stevenson's novella.Historically,Edward Hyde,3rd Earl of Clarendon, was reputedly a cross dresser.
I have little doubt that George Hutchinson,a personal groom who had been trained to become a sailor,was part of that group.

Once you realise who "Jack the Ripper" was,the whole case unfolds like a game of patience.
My last six years have involved searching for a suitable screenwriter.
I have not uncovered any direct involvement by the Royal family.

Going back to Mitre Square.
Eddowes would have set up the Berner Street payoff earlier on Saturday at Jack's bolt hole.
No doubt she was given a bit of money on the spot.
The closest quiet establishment for a drink to celebrate and kill some time was upstairs at the Bull Inn.
Police tend to like unwinding away from the public gaze and there were many working and living in the immediate area.

Saint Michael has been like a patron saint to police forces.
Michaelmas is also the start of the teaching term.A busy lecturer, may slip chalk into his pocket, while preparing his blackboard over the weekend.
Also a good night for annual general meetings,which would have taken Jack to the other side of Whitechapel Street.
There was also a legal source of money in the Berner Street locale.

Incidentally,"Goulston Street" was a stunt to draw attention away from Mitre Square.

Shoe Lane,where Eddowes may have sheltered overnight on her return from hop picking,was in the Fleet Street vicinity.
Eddowes was checking with mutual friends of Nichols' to discover what they knew.

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 22:56

Karen wrote:If Mary Jane had a child, that child would have been 8-10 years old in 1888 because many newspaper accounts have stated this.

Liverpool Mary Jane Kelly did indeed have an 8 year old in 1888. Daughter Christina Wilson was born in 1880 in Liverpool.

They also fit the Mary Jane Kelly and child of Birkenhead (near Liverpool) sent as a tip to London Police by retired Birkenhead police officer, George West.

If she is the real MJK, I have a hard time believing MJK would have left her infant daughter behind when whe went to London. Since she had ties, as in relatives, in the West and East ends, she could have left her with them.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Fri 21 Jun 2013 - 3:08

My candidate for Mary Ann Kelly was born 27 April,1859 in Whitechapel/Shoreditch to John and Emma Kelly.
Mary Ann....MA....Emma....get it!
The 1881 UK Census was taken on 5th April.
Mary Kelly prostitute 23 (not 22) was at the "Infirmary Of The Whitechapel Union" Bakers Row.
Popular spot.
Not far from Nichols' demise.
Chapman was purportedly heading there.

Ever wonder where Nichols was for the 1881 Census?
Try Great Ailie Street.
She looked younger than her age.

Regarding Liverpool....I suspect Mary Ann Kelly had friends and/or family from Lancashire.
Liverpool was a popular spot for the Irish.
Her "cousin" may have spent the 1881 Census in the "nick".Surname was Price.London.

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Jun 2013 - 11:40

That sounds like an interesting candidate, Mr. Hyde. May I say that, if you could find a little Magdalene/Davinci angle on it, screenwriters will flock to the idea.


Last edited by Dr.O on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 13:45; edited 1 time in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 15:05

I have some pictures of L'pool MJK's son(s) and I'm trying to match the youngest to various celebrities from the Victorian Era.


Last edited by Dr.O on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 13:47; edited 3 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Thu 27 Jun 2013 - 18:27

With respect to the origin of the name Roslyn, there is some controversy. Anti-D'Onston forces, that want to deny every speculation about RDS, claim he was named after Rolsyn Villas near his home and not Rosslyn Chapel. But considering the popularity of Rosslyn and therefore the name Rosslyn, spelled with one S and/or no Y or anyway you want, started with the Dirge of Rosebelle at the turn of the 1800s, Roslyn's name still comes directly or somewhat indirectly from Rosslyn Chapel.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10762

There's no wild speculation there but some seem to think so and call it a veritable hoax. But if they're wrong, then they could be called hoaxers.


Last edited by Dr.O on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 12:39; edited 1 time in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 27 Jun 2013 - 21:57

Roskelyn is a very old Scottish name.Possibly Pict.

The Battle of Roslin,1303,gave fame to the name.
A close friend has researched Simon Fraser and other relatives.

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 20:06

Rosslyn is spelled Roslin in Sir Walter Scott's poem as it was in 1303 when they named the Battle of Roslin.

Rosslyn spelled with a y has given it a more romantic and perhaps celtic spelling in the last two hundred years.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 4:53

Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland,1870 to 1873,was Robert St. Clair-Erskine,4th Earl of Rosslyn.

That was about the time of Stephenson's name change.

archive.org/details/poeticalworkssco00scotiala

Contains "Lay of the Last Minstrel".

Mr Hyde

Posts : 174

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 19:29

Who said Rosslyn and the Ripper aren't connected? Here is a real connection.

http://www.phantomsandmonsters.com/2011/10/rosslyn-chapel-bones-query.html

“The ultimate conversation piece has to be the mystery clock in a full-sized inlaid mahogany coffin, dated c. 1900—complete with real skeleton—used in the opening scenes of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. The skeleton is rumoured to be the remains of the young Italian lover and secretary of the Countess of Rosslyn. After his death she couldn’t bear to be separated from him, so she immortalized him in the clock and took him everywhere with her!” Acquired by Ken Paul from an unnamed music-hall escape artist, the clock was won by an anonymous bidder for £35,000.
...

"Interestingly, besides appearing in The Rocky Horror Picture Show, the clock had most recently been hired to appear in a then-unreleased film about Jack the Ripper, From Hell, which presented the theory that Jack was a Freemason."

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Karen on Sun 30 Jun 2013 - 16:14

Personally, I thought that Roslin came from the term "rose line," which meant a particular bloodline.

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
avatar
Karen
Admin

Posts : 4899

View user profile http://victorianripper.niceboard.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Sun 30 Jun 2013 - 19:17

I'm sure Rosslyn or Roslin originates with a genealogical line of some type. Crowley might also have been promoting a bloodline with his story of Roslyn D'Onston's necktie box of bloody cravats. Family ties?

Here is the link to the claim that Roslyn D'Onston Stephenson used the name Roslyn to distinguish himself from religious writer Robert Stephanus when he was working on the Patristic Gospels, and got the name from Roslyn Villas next to his grandfather's home rather than from Rosslyn Chapel and some esoteric link to the Rosslyn mysteries.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6639&page=4

On the other hand, the Patristic Gospels promotes the same basic religious ideas as the Rosslyn legends. So I don't see why one would look to divorce Roslyn from Rosslyn.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Guest on Wed 3 Jul 2013 - 21:50

Do you think Walter Sickert and the Ripper were tapping into each other? 

I know you see Mary Kelly as being dressed up as a deer. Are Sickert's female subjects posed and defaced like Ripper victims because Sickert and Jack are expressing and/or sharing the same view? And is that why Sickert's art looks like a Ripper crime scene?http://orwellwasright.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/walter-sickert-the-rippers-art/


Last edited by Dr.O on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 16:44; edited 2 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Roslyn Hoax Reboot

Post by Karen on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 5:26

I think Walter Sickert was an early era Ripperologist. I also believe that besides his interest in the Ripper case, which many people at the time understandably had, he was also leaving clues for us in his coded works of art. I also believe that Inspector Abberline was a close friend of Sickert's.

***************************************
Karen Trenouth
Author of: "Epiphany of the Whitechapel Murders"
Author of: "Jack the Ripper: The Satanic Team"
avatar
Karen
Admin

Posts : 4899

View user profile http://victorianripper.niceboard.org

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum