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Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

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Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 21:53

Hello Karen and all,

Here is a link to some research linking a Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool to the West End. It was done through the in-laws of her brother Henry.

Sorry: external links not activated.

In 1891, the daughter of Angelica/Angelik Gould/Rawlinson/Peyton mentioned at the end of the document, Margaret Ellen Rawlinson/Reardon, is actually living on Cleveland Street. 93 Cleveland St.


Last edited by Dr.O on Fri 22 Mar 2013 - 17:54; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 2:50

Dr. O,

Thank you for the link to that fascinating information. My research on Mary Jane Kelly always, invariably, brought me back to Liverpool. Maybe if I put the link in this post, it might work. Readers can also copy and paste the link into their web browser.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/129201142/Liverpool-Mary-Jane-Kelly-links-to-West-End

Thanks for sharing that with us, Dr. O!

Sincerely, Karen

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Fri 8 Mar 2013 - 16:15

Karen wrote:Dr. O,

Thank you for the link to that fascinating information. My research on Mary Jane Kelly always, invariably, brought me back to Liverpool.

Which it should. Here are just some of the stats I gathered on the number of Mary Kellys in the 1881 England Census by country/city.

England and Wales 2496

Liverpool 275

London 269

Wales 65

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Fri 22 Mar 2013 - 18:04

I wonder what percent of time is spent on MJKs from Liverpool by other Ripperologists.


Last edited by Dr.O on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 0:41; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Sun 24 Mar 2013 - 20:01

Dr. O,

You stated, "I wonder what percent of time is spent on MJKs from Liverpool by other Ripperologists."

You will really have to ask the Ripperologists that, as my research work is done independently of them; and, moreover, I do not have any connection with them whatsoever.

Karen

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Wed 27 Mar 2013 - 18:34

If Ripperologists were researching it, you'd think it would turn up on a Google search.

But all I find when I type in Liverpool and Mary Jane Kelly is "Sam Flynn's" candidate from Monmouthshire who was born in Liverpool and several sites where Chris George mentions the one from Liverpool who was 34 and all he keeps saying is she was too old.

The rest are from lay people and, of course, your site.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Wed 27 Mar 2013 - 21:36

Hi Dr. O.

This Mary Kelly has been mentioned before, and even though she would have been 35 years of age in 1888, Mr. Mc'Carthy stated that Mary Jane Kelly looked 30 years old.

Mary Kelly, "England and Wales Census, 1881"

Name: Mary Kelly
Age (Original): 28
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1853
Birthplace: Ireland
Relationship to Head of Household: Servant
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Laundry Maid
Address: Adelphi Hotel Ranelagh Place
Event Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1341867
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 3621 / 40
Page Number: 42
Citing this Record

"England and Wales Census, 1881," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQDD-WLV : accessed 28 Mar 2013), Mary Kelly, 1881.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Mon 1 Apr 2013 - 6:34

well, our Mary Jane was born in 1863 in Ireland. so the Liverpool one is not the same. would it be strange if she looked 30, living the kind of life she did? still, she was considered to be the most pretty of all Ripper victims.
which makes me certain that your socalled "reconstruction" of MJK's face is utter rubbish. there's no way of knowing what she lookedl like, based on the crime scene photos. let the dead rest in peace.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Mon 1 Apr 2013 - 6:53

by the way, if i am not mistaken the autopsy reports states that MJK was NOT pregnant.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Mon 1 Apr 2013 - 16:37

WynneBaxter wrote:well, our Mary Jane was born in 1863 in Ireland. so the Liverpool one is not the same.
To be fair WB, all we really know about our Mary Jane is that she died in Whitechapel in November of 1888. That means whoever she is, she didn't die at some other time somewhere else with a death certificate made out for that other time and place to prove it.

Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool died between 1887 and 1890. The rest of her family are accounted for including her son born in 1887 but no death certificate has been found for her.

All other matches between the candidate and our Mary are coincidental or speculative based on witness reports. However, Liverpool Mary does have proven ties to Whitechapel dated to 1887 as does our Mary Kelly, not to mention the West End and Cleveland St. but then we are getting back into speculation.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Mon 1 Apr 2013 - 21:40

I found Liverpool Henry Kelly's brother-in-law, Robert Gould (the Gould son who was born in Ipswich) in the 1871Census. He is living at 26 or 27 Broad St., Westminster, London. He's a tailor like his father. Here is Robert Gould in 1881. A "Fixer Tiler" instead of a tailor.


Address:51, Bolsover St, St Marylebone County: London

GOLD Robert Head Married M 43 1838 Fixer Tiler Suffolk

GOLD, Milly Wife Married F 42 1839 Cambridge, Cambridgeshire

GOLD, Jessie Daughter Single F 11 1870 Scholar London, London, Middlesex

GOLD, Maud Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar London, London, Middlesex

GOLD, Robert E Son Single M 2 1879 London, London, Middlesex



Here he is in 1891. A widow and an upholsterer.

Address: 50, Bolsover Street, St Marylebone,

GOLD, Robert Head Widower M 54 1837 Jobbing Upholsterer (Cabt) Suffolk

GOLD, Jessie Daughter Single F 21 1870 St Pancras, London

GOLD, Maud Daughter Single F 19 1872 St Marylebone, London

GOLD, Robert E Son M 12 1879 Scholar St Marylebone, London



Henry’s wife, Emmeline, had a sister, Margaret. In 1871, Margaret Gould is a servant in the home of shipowner, Daniel Green (3 Balmoral Road, West Derby, 1871 Census).Green was co-owner of the clipper ship, Mimosa. Among other cargo, the Mimosa carried cotton from China to Liverpool. .http://www.ylolfa.com/en/newyddion.php?&ID=86


I found their marriage certificate with sister Angelica as a witness along with husband John Peyton. It's a Catholic ceremony, Angelica recorded as Annam Rollinson, Rollinson from her first marriage to Adam Rawlinson.



In 1861, Angelica Gould is living at 175 Grove Street, Liverpool, servant of cotton broker,
Augustus Aglaste (Agelasto). In 1871, after the marriage, she and her husband John Peyton are living next door to Angelica's parents on Horatio Street in Liverpool. Their address is 7 Horatio. I found her in the 1881 Census living on the same street in Westminster as her brother was in 1871 (See #1 p.2).Her residence is 15 Broad Street and she is a tailoress. She has a daughter from her first marriage.

Angelica may have followed Agelasto to London where he is recorded for the next three censuses (1871-1891) at Hyde Park Square. Her daughter Margaret Rawlinson/Peyton is at 93 Cleveland St. in 1891.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 13:20

Liverpool Henry Kelly's niece Margaret Rawlinson/Reardon is also living on Thrawl Street in Whitechapel in 1887. Same time as Mary Kelly.

No. 5 Thrawl Street. (Margaret Rawlinson/Daniel Reardon 1887 marriage cert.)


Last edited by Dr.O on Sun 7 Apr 2013 - 20:45; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Sun 7 Apr 2013 - 20:45

Catherine Eddowes sister Eliza Gold was living next door at

#6 Thrawl St.

I'm wondering if there is a connection between this Gold family, connected to Kate Eddowes, and Margaret Rawlinson's maternal Gold/Gould family which is linked to Mary Kelly of Liverpool.

Eliza Gold's husband was James Gold born 1836 in Lambton and his father was Jeremiah Gold who married Elizabeth Aslett.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Mon 8 Apr 2013 - 5:28

Dr. O,

Thank you so very much for that information. You know, it is interesting how, in the Ripper case, it seems that every road leads into Dorset-street or thereabouts.
Annie Chapman had lived in Dorset-street previously.
Mary Jane Kelly lived in Miller's Court, Dorset-street.
Catherine Eddowes had a relative in Thrawl-street and had used the street name "Mary Ann Kelly," which again, shows the relativity of that name as to the Ripper case.

I can't help thinking of how John Kelly fits into all of this. That would have been the John Kelly who lived with Catherine Eddowes. Who was he really?

Thanks again,

Karen

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Mon 8 Apr 2013 - 15:00

Karen wrote:Catherine Eddowes had a relative in Thrawl-street and had used the street name "Mary Ann Kelly," which again, shows the relativity of that name as to the Ripper case.
Mary Kelly and Mary Ann Nichols both reportedly lived on Thrawl Street at one time. Nichols was living at #18 Thrawl.

When I was searching for marriage certificates, I remember seeing that Frederick Gold, the brother-in-law of Catherine Eddowes' sister (#6 Thrawl St.), married a Mary Ann Kelly.

P.S. Link to Frederick/Mary Gold ne. Kelly: http://genforum.genealogy.com/gold/messages/479.html

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Thu 11 Apr 2013 - 17:28

[quote="WynneBaxter"]well, our Mary Jane was born in 1863 in Ireland. so the Liverpool one is not the same. would it be strange if she looked 30, living the kind of life she did? still, she was considered to be the most pretty of all Ripper victims.
which makes me certain that your socalled "reconstruction" of MJK's face is utter rubbish. there's no way of knowing what she lookedl like, based on the crime scene photos. let the dead rest in peace.[/quote

The highlighted portion of this post is what I found offensive. You used the term "rubbish." Why can't you disagree with someone without attacking the work? The proper thing to say would have been, "I don't really agree with your MJK facial reconstruction as I believe MJK was much prettier than that."
Would that have been a stretch for you?

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Wed 8 May 2013 - 17:18

The Australian line is interesting too because Liverpool MjK's brother, William Kelly, who married Susan Webb in Liverpool and went to Australia, named his first three children after his siblings, Ann Amelia, Mary Jane and John Henry.
This indicates to me that their brother Henry was indeed also known as John, as reportedly was the brother of the real MJK.


Last edited by Dr.O on Fri 31 May 2013 - 13:38; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Fri 10 May 2013 - 15:37

Liverpool Mary Kelly had two brothers, William and Henry.

William , born in 1844, was ten years older, and moved to Australia in 1866 when she was 12. She probably hardly knew him.

Her brother Henry, born in 1847, always lived in the same neighbourhood in Liverpool. That would explain why the real MJK only mentions her brother Henry.

It amazes me how this MJK candidate fits so nicely into the known or presumed history of the real MJK and provides possible explanations of the unusual aspects.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Fri 31 May 2013 - 13:35

"It amazes me how this MJK candidate fits so nicely into the known or presumed history of the real MJK and provides possible explanations of the unusual aspects."

Another thing: Liverpool Mary Kelly's husband Robert Wilson died of TB in 1890.
That would explain why MJK never got married (Joseph Flemming wanted to marry her). She was legally still married to Robert.

http://www.jtrforums.com/archive/index.php/t-14196.html

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 12:00

Another example of how Liverpool MJK fits nicely into the legend of London MJK:

Liverpool MJK had a sister named Ann Amelia Dixon (ne. Kelly), listed as a milk dealer, widow, in 1881 in Birkenhead. She remarried a Dagnall and died in early 1888.

The real MJK allegedly had a sister who was a merchant and of whom she is said to have been very fond. If the feelings were mutual, then the death of Ann Amelia in 1888 explains why MJK's sister didn't show up at the funeral.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Mon 24 Jun 2013 - 21:42

Dr. O,

I do have subsections of various candidates for Mary Jane Kelly in the forum dedicated to her and found at the following links:

http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1906-others-named-mary-kelly

http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1907-others-named-mary-o-brien

http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1904-others-named-mary-jane

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 8:56

The search for MORE Mary Kelly's descendants continues. I believe she has already been identified. ... Census records confirm this and show she disappears after 1881...I don't know but I think this MJK is avoided because of the Maybrick diary.

Liverpool MJK is denied for similar reasons Karen's MJK is--Ripperologists don't believe in a Diary.

 http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19062

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Karen on Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 14:38

Ripperologists do not believe in the truth!! It would put a huge crimp in their lucrative profiteering racket now, wouldn't it?
study study study study  (Keep the money train rolling)

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Wally on Tue 24 Sep 2013 - 4:15

As a new lad on the proverbial chopping block, it seems to me that most, and I mean a high percentage of Ripper enthusiasts seem to be one dimensional. If anyone suggest something that differs slightly then they all pounce on the poor sods to ridicule. Their-way or no-way I guess.

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Re: Mary Jane Kelly from Liverpool

Post by Guest on Wed 25 Sep 2013 - 12:43

It's always easiest to attack a fortress before the foundations are even finished.

Instead of co-operating and helping to build a case to someone's design and then seeing if it holds up under fire, they attack right away.

"Idea killers".

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