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The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Sat 6 Jul 2013 - 0:12

Karen,

Do you have a story to explain Joe Barnett's identification? Was he trying to protect her? Did he know she was a target? 

All three of us here right now have three different candidates. Hyde has his Mary Ann Kelly of Shoreditch. This thread provides an opportunity to bring your candidate to the evidence and the witness statements.

So far and somehow, it has worked better having people with definite solutions to the Ripper puzzle. It's much better than forums where moderators have no solution. I guess they don't want any.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 22:04

One of the things the last three victims had in common was that they ditched their partners just before their demise.

 Rather like they had a winning Lotto ticket they had yet to cash.

 Eddowes and Kelly's ex partners no doubt knew something was up.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 3:47

Dr.O,

       Mary's lengthy stay in an infirmary may have been in Whitechapel under the care of a Welsh doctor who had other Welsh patients.

 I picked up a Canadian accent in the 1960s courtesy of a couple of friends.

 Imagine being stuck in bed with several around you all the time.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 11:08

I can appreciate this scenario. It certainly would explain a Londoner mistaken for Welsh.

It's basically the same scenario for a Liverpudlian. The one I propose lived on a street in Liverpool named after a Welsh quarry, with Welsh neighbours, and an ironworker named Davies in the house next to her court.

Is your Welsh doctor Morgan Davies?

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 11:41

The two Dr.Davies at the London Hospital inspired the scenario.
 One of them,at least,had a clientele of his countrymen according to his obituary.

 When I was a child in the early 1950s, several of my friends were refugees and of the Jewish faith.
 I actually spoke Yiddish,as a result.

 Liverpool became quite famous as a result of The Quarrymen....in the 1960s.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 12:57

One of the Doctors Davies along with one of the Doctors Treves (Edward,his brother was on holidays) shows up in the 1881 Census at 37 and 38 Great Alie Street.
 Wonder where Polly was?
 Same address.
 As her father testified,she looked much younger.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 18:13

Getting back to Mary Kelly....some people think one of her boyfriends was Adrienus L. Morgestern,a married man with several children,mainly daughters.
 Perhaps his brother,M.A.Morgestern, seven years his junior might have been a better choice.

 On the subject of people from the Netherlands....the Friesian word for Jews used to be Juwes!
 My "Jack the Ripper" knew that.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 19:53

This book claims a positive ID on Mrs. Buki. I think it is related to evidence for Adienus Morgenstern.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mary-Kelly-Victims-Ripper-ebook/dp/B00DYFWTSE/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373969066&sr=1-5&keywords=mary+jane+kelly

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Wed 17 Jul 2013 - 1:36

I thought Karen had that sorted years ago.

 One of the reasons that I joined.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Wed 17 Jul 2013 - 2:42

www.stgite.org.uk/media/highwaydirectory1921.html

Thereabouts.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Wed 17 Jul 2013 - 6:25

www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18760626-249&div=t18760626-249

 T & G Oyler at 106-107,opposite what became 90 St.George Street,also owned 9-10 Dorset Street.

 Next door to another of John McCarthy's establishments.

 93 St.George Street was the "Marine Store" address Karen nominated for Mrs.Buki in the 1881 Census.

 Marine Store....Chandlers....in a waterfront setting....meh!

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 0:30

www.stgite.org.uk/library/commonlodginghouse1910.jpg

 Echoes of Polly's lodgings at 18 Thrawl Street.

 Shows that Mary Kelly was doing relatively well for a person of her station in life.

 The overcrowding statistics are difficult to comprehend.

 So is the TB rate of 25%. 

 Some of these unfortunate people (the term was not confined to prostitutes) would do anything to escape the squalor.

 Even blackmail!

 No doubt less expensive, for the person being blackmailed once again, to enlist some help.
 Police,peers and landlords seem to top the list!Plus Hutchinson.


Last edited by Mr Hyde on Thu 18 Jul 2013 - 0:32; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling.)

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 16:40

Mr Hyde wrote:I thought Karen had that sorted years ago.

 One of the reasons that I joined.

 I was right. It's related to evidence for Morgenstern.

It should have been sorted years ago because he's been identified since 2004 or earlier.

It doesn't seem to lead anywhere so far. But it leads some to believe Barnett was telling the truth about everything.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 0:24

Morgenstern....have they got the correct one this time?

I suspect a child calling Mrs.Buckingham "Buki" may have created an endearing nickname that stuck.

Perhaps she was simply attempting to help Mary.Whoever she was.

Many of the people in this tale are known to each other.Life is like that.

Look at the way Eddowes left clues left right and center and nobody has noticed them.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 8 Oct 2013 - 14:02

The Mrs. Buki identification is definite. Adrienus Morgenstern's sister-in-law's first married name was Boeku pronounced Buki.

MJK's East End history has been confirmed.

It's no surprise she didn't lie to Barnett about that, since he could easily have run into her former associates or their mutual acquaintances. Then he'd have found out if she was lying or telling the truth.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Tue 8 Oct 2013 - 22:15

Might be an interesting look into Mary Kelly's character.

Do we know which of the Morgenstern brothers was married to "Boeku"?

Was he the same one that Mary lived with?Later,perhaps.A third Morgenstern brother?

Any pertinent addresses would be interesting.Apart from 43 Victoria Rd of the 1881 Census.

PS.Have to laugh.Just had a parcel pickup.Driver's comment...."Ripper".

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Wed 9 Oct 2013 - 19:03

Neal Shelden wrote: ...the story goes that Mary Jane went with Mrs Buki (Elizabeth Boeku, Johannes' lover) to the West End brothel to retrieve her dresses, I don't really think it's very likely that it's was where Adrianus was living. And I think there is a suggestion that Mary Jane's brothel was at Knightsbridge rather than the further western end of the King's Road where Adrianus had lived at Victoria Road.
Neal Shelden wrote:Adrianus was living in a house in Victoria Road, Fulham, up until the time of his wife's death in 1884. His brother Maran stayed in the area until he moved to Wandsworth. Their elder brother Johannes was already living in the East End, so Adrianus went over to the East End between 1884 to 1888 probably to be with Johannes and met with a woman called Elizabeth (known as Felix rather than Phoenix).

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=210099

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 10 Oct 2013 - 1:21

Thanks for that.
Makes sense,unlike some of the drivel on another site.
Suspect that the brothel may have been a "Molly House".

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 10 Oct 2013 - 4:05

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harrods_1909.jpg

Although twenty four years after Mary Kelly's departure from Knightsbridge,this painting would give a fair idea of what was required of a lady in the top few percent of London society.

Knightsbridge was the home of the Royal Horse Guards.Lord Arthur Somerset.

Incidentally,the 1881 Census lists John and Mary McCarty at 138 Pennington Street,with another Dock Laborer by the name of Simeon McCarty lodging at 141.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 10 Oct 2013 - 6:28

In the 1881 Census,a widowed Parisian dressmaker named Delphine Blondeau and her son are listed as lodgers at the Three Horseshoes,19 Gilbert Street,St George Hanover Square.

Edit.Seems her name was actually Emma Delphine Blondeau.Fair Emma!
      Her son was named Victor after his father.
      She was born 23 January 1847 (also shaved 4 years off her age) in France and passed away in California,USA on April 1926.


Last edited by Mr Hyde on Thu 10 Oct 2013 - 7:28; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Usual!)

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Fri 8 Nov 2013 - 17:47

I still think she lied about all of her past previous to arriving in the East End. That includes her history in the West End. She didn't want to be identified by people in the West End who might know her real identity.

Only the East End history has been confirmed. She reportedly went back to the West End with Mrs. Boeku/Buki so she would know but she did not testify.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 11:32

P.S. The article on the first post says that Mary left for France after going to Cardiff with her cousin and then went to the West End to live in a 'fashionable house' of ill repute.

Is it possible she went to France first and then London?

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 12 Nov 2013 - 14:17

Karen wrote:

" />
Here is a reposting of that portion of the article in post 1.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Fri 15 Nov 2013 - 18:18

Here is the proof that Mary Kelly could have gone to France by being procured at a different city in England. From The Maiden Tribute to Modern Babylon:

"Who are the chief exporters now?"
"F–––– has gone to Liverpool, a fine field for picking up girls. My wife is in Manchester, Alfred of the beautiful teeth and some half-dozen others are in London. K–––, P–––, C––––, C––––, and R–––, all Belgians, are all in the business.
AN INTERVIEW WITH AN EX-SLAVE TRADER
This week I had a long interview with John, the S–––, who had within the last few weeks returned to London from a prolonged–involuntary–sojourn in his native Belgium. This worthy has long had a high reputation among the exporters of English girls, not only because of his own exploits, but still more because of those of his wife, an Irishwoman, who is now practising as procuress for foreign brothels in the city of Manchester. http://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/pmg/tribute/mt4.php

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Newspaper

Post by James Cartwright on Wed 9 Sep 2015 - 13:11

Hi Karen,

Can you tell me the name of the newspaper, date etc?

Much obliged


James

James Cartwright
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