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The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

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The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Sun 28 Feb 2010 - 12:47

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Sat 26 Jun 2010 - 14:36

What parts of Mary Kelly's 'life' would you discard as fiction or put little stock in?

I doubt the 'six or seven brothers' and the 'brother in the army' stories. That's just to scare away dangerous people.

I doubt the Wales stories because the street missionary said she wasn't from Wales and he would know.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Mon 5 Dec 2011 - 17:19

What do you think of the efforts to "de-mythologize" Mary Kelly by various bloggers from the Ripper community?

Isn't it okay to speculate on Kelly's background? The demythologizers are the ones saying nothing about her is known.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 7:24

I couldn't disagree more with those individuals who mythologize the background of Mary Jane Kelly. There is more than enough information about Mary Jane to not only understand what the Ripper case was truly about, but to indeed solve the entire case. More is known about her background than any other Ripper victim.

The mythology of Kelly stems from those individuals who wish to retain the status quo in Ripperology. Some individuals only wish to continue the mythologizing in order to make money. Some others wish to protect their status or title within the Ripper community; and others still wish to protect the reputation of their respective secret societies, for example, Freemasonry.

The only myth that surrounds Mary Jane Kelly is that the woman who was murdered in Miller's Court was named Mary Jane Kelly. We have been told by a police official that her real name was Winifred/Winnifred.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 14:29

Hello, Karen,

Was Abberline's Winnifred killed on purpose or by mistaken identity. Is her identity important or the real "Mary Jane Kelly" who you say survived?

When I talk about demythologizers, I include persons like the blogger who lists Mary's survival as depicted in From Hell, etc. as an unwarranted, myth by "heartless" people. Here's his partial list:

"Mary Jane Kelly has been called the mastermind of a blackmail scheme ... an alleged spy for the Irish resistance...; a woman who survived an attack against her by not being the woman in the room at the time, surviving to escape ...to live out a long and pleasant life raising many children, ...as far away as the imagination of morbidly-obsessed amateur Ripperologists can dream her, away from that bloody scene in Miller’s Court." Romanticizing Mary Kelly

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/Mary_Jane_Kelly_and_Arthur_Sullivan_96496444


Last edited by Rhochiy on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 19:14; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 18:50

I believe that Abberline's Winifred was murdered by mistake. I believe that Mary Jane (O'Brien) was the intended target. The reason that she was murdered is because she was related to individuals who were involved in the Irish resistance.

As for Winifred's background being "romantic", I disagree with that. It was actually anything but - she married young, only to lose her husband in an accident, lived in abject poverty in the East End, and then was finally murdered by Jack the Ripper. Hardly romantic, all things considered.

As for Mary Jane's background, it was also unromantic - she ran afoul of her family in Ireland, had to leave her home and people, live in abject poverty in the East End, raise a young son alone, and then finally end up in Canada (where her descendants still live to this day.)


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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 19:11

What you are saying, Karen, is that Mary Jane O'Brien was the real Mary Jane Kelly but Winnifred's origin and death are "MJK's origins and death" as reported by witnesses.

We know MJK's alleged origins, like her death, are unromantic but they were never proven to have any substance (until you linked them to Winnifred). But what about Mary Jane O'Brien? If she was the real target, surely her idenitity and background are more relevant, and seems to be very romantic if she was in the Irish resistance.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Tue 6 Dec 2011 - 21:58

That is correct - I believe that Mary Jane O'Brien is not the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly, and that what we assume was Mary Jane's background vis a vis Wales was really Winifred's.

O'Brien was from Ireland and may or may not have been involved in the Irish Home Rule affair. There was also a Fenian named Timothy Kelly and the O'Brien's were a wealthy, land-owning family in County Clare.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Wed 14 Dec 2011 - 18:38

Karen, thanks for the clarification.

There has been some suggestions on various boards about looking for Mary Kelly candidates by searching for them in the census records up to 1881 and in the Birth and Marriage records of the BMD index, and then looking to see if she actually disappears in the census record and has no death record in the BMD. The real Mary Jane Kelly is listed in the Death Index as Marie Jeanette Kelly 25 Whitechapel December 1888 (added a month after her death in November), so she would obviously not be listed twice.

Have you checked to see if Winnifred Davies has a corresponding Death Index record other than the MJK one for 1888? And otherwise disappears from the census and all other records?

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Thu 15 Dec 2011 - 6:01

Here are a few Winifred Davies who were born between 1861 and 1865:

Births Mar 1861 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Montgomery 11b 246

Births Sep 1861 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Ann Auckland 10a 154

Births Mar 1862 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Tregaron 11b [68]7

Births Jun 1862 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Llanelly 11a 594

Births Sep 1864 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Llandovery 11a 617

Births Dec 1864 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Margaret Corwen 11b 387

Births Jun 1865 (>99%)
Davies Winifred Aberystwyth 11b 59
Davies Winifred Corwen 11b 433

Births Sep 1865 (>99%)
DAVIES Winifred Corwen 11b 403

Births Dec 1865 (>99%)
Davies Winifred W. Derby 8b 506
Davies Winifred Corwen 11b 384

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Thu 15 Dec 2011 - 6:18

Births Sep 1861 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Neath 11a 447

Births Mar 1862 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Bedwelty 11a 7_

Births Dec 1862 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Festiniog 11b 410
DAVIES Winefred Aberystwith 11b 70

Births Mar 1863 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Bedwelty 11a 114

Births Sep 1863 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Festiniog 11b 417

Births Mar 1864 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Dudley 6c 31
DAVIES Winefred Brecknock 11b 99
DAVIES Winefred Liverpool 8b 56

Births Jun 1864 (>99%)
DAVIES Winefred Pembroke 11a 782

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Thu 15 Dec 2011 - 6:56

What is really strange is that there are two listings for Marie Jeanette listed in Whitechapel at the age of 25 during the final quarter of 1888. Why not list her as Marie Jeanette Kelly or Mary Jane Kelly? Why the need for 2 listings?


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol

Deaths Dec 1888 (>99%)
Davies Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211

Deaths Dec 1888 (>99%)
Kelly Marie 25 E.Preston 2b 218
Kelly Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Dec 2011 - 14:29

So Davies was Winifred's maiden name? I was thinking that as her married name because MJK supposedly married a Davies.

If Davies is her maiden name as it is with these other Winifred Davies, we'd need to find hers as well as all the other possible married names to look for their Death Index record so as to eliminate them and find the right one. It would therefore be harder to prove one of these women has no corresponding Death record in the BMD other than MJK, age 25, died 1888.

P.S. Wow! I didn't know that MJK was listed twice in the Death Index.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 3 Mar 2012 - 20:54

Suspect our Mary Kelly was born Mary Ann Kelly to John and "Emma" on 27 April 1859 in Shoreditch.
"Emma" in both cases is a nick name for Mary Ann....MA....I used to date one in 1966/7.Um...not one of the Kelly's but!
"Fair Emma's" mother was likely born in Liverpool in 1841 as Mary Price.
"Our Mary's" parents and an Aunt,Ellen Price, were living at 3 Little Paternoster Row during the 1881 Census.Suspect the parents moved to 55 Flower and Dean Street later that year due to mum's chronic ill health.
During that year their daughter may have been residing at 1 Suffolk Place in the West End theater district.
I realize the dates are slightly out.Having worked on the Australian Census in 1981 and Social Security thereafter, I find them close enough.
The Great or Long Depression is rarely mentioned for those times.
Incidentally,2nd Battalion,Scots Guards were not in Dublin until 1895.1St Battalion and 3rd Foot Guards were stationed there in1824 and 1882 respectively.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sun 4 Mar 2012 - 19:57

2nd Battalion Scots Guards returned to their London barracks from the Sudan late in 1885, and stayed there, until leaving for Dublin in 1895 for a couple of years.
Mary's "brother" probably did not exist.
Possibly a namesake or relative did.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Thu 27 Jun 2013 - 18:58

Scots Guards in London are like the Swiss Guard in Rome. They'd be charged with guarding the Queen and head of the Church of England.

I can see where Mary would come up with a story like that.

Do you think it's better to take the 'story' to the candidates or get the candidates first and then take them to Mary's story?

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Thu 27 Jun 2013 - 20:22

You are actually referring to the Band of the Scots Guards.
The warrant officer could probably do some damage with his Bandmaster's staff though.

Suspect Mary Ann Kelly's brother Henry was an accountant in Swansea.

Mary was possibly mentally ill.
Bipolar verging on Multiple Personality Disorder,probably with Syphillis treated by Mercury.
Throw in a bit of grog.

Now suspect her parents still resided in Shoreditch for the 1881 Census.

The three from 3 Paternoster Row may have been friends or relatives.
That address and the married couple's move to Eddowe's place of residence is too much of a coincidence.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 12:50

Mr Hyde wrote:You are actually referring to the Band of the Scots Guards.
You are correct, Mr. Hyde.

I was wondering how the Scots Guards could protect the Queen and keep leaving their post to go to Africa and Ireland etc.!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_of_the_Scots_Guards

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Jun 2013 - 13:39

Researchers on the other forum continue to search for Mary Kelly's with six brothers, a brother named John/Johnto/Henry in the army, a husband in a coal mine disaster, and a father in an Ironworks.

Little or no attention is paid to the sister in business and a female relative in show business or to actual female candidates without the above criteria.

You don't have to be a great psychologist to figure out the reason for this one-sided approach.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 5:38

Once you realize who "Jack the Ripper" was,the case falls into place.
 Look for him and you will find him.
 When you do,you will kick yourself!

 Ironically,his wife was Irish.She bore him daughters.

 There were two Doctors at the London Hospital named Davies.
 Tends to confuse Ripperologists.
 They were not "Jack".
 One may have treated Mary Ann Kelly though.
 One was possibly treating Nichols as an inpatient,during the 1881 Census.

 Doubt Mary had a female relative in show business.
 Her landlord did.
 They drank at one of his families two hotels in Hanbury Street.

 I actually started to give some explanation of "Jack's" background on another Forum.
 Was accused of "trolling",so I "ahem" resigned.

 I actually came down with Neurasthenia in 1982.
 Today we call it Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
 Insomnia is a problem.Sometimes I tend to cross post.Um...oops!
 I'm having problems now,so I'll close off.

 The film is too important to leak "Jack's" real name.
 There are some who have agreed not to divulge though.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 6:05

If Matilda Alice Victoria Wood can become Marie Lloyd.....
 
 Mary Ann Kelly can become Marie Jeannette Kelly.

 They and their families attended the same Church.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 19:14

Which Mary Ann Kelly is this MJK candidate of yours?

John Kelly's wife?
Someone you found?
Catherine Eddowes' sister-in-law?

The last one is mentioned in the Liverpool MJK thread, fifth post on this linked page: http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t2224p10-mary-jane-kelly-from-liverpool

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Mr Hyde on Sat 29 Jun 2013 - 21:29

Mary Ann Kelly
 born 27 April 1859
 christened 22 May 1859,at Saint Leonards,Shoreditch.

 Strongly suspect she is listed in the 1881 Census, as a prostitute from Castle Alley, who was an inpatient at the Whitechapel Infirmary.Religion,C of E.

 Matilda Alice Victoria Wood
 born 12 February 1870
 christened 20 March 1870,at Saint Leonards,Shoreditch.

 Apart from a name change to Marie,both had links to John McCarthy.
 The same guy who had hotels close to Nichols and Chapman's demise.

 Ask yourself what he and his son were doing at Abberline's retirement party, held at the Three Nun's Hotel, around the corner from Mitre Square.
 Possibly the Bull Inn was owned by the same person.Samuel East,Junior.

 Mary Kelly had no mother in Ireland sending letters, and McCarthy knew it.
 A complete fabrication.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Guest on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 19:13

How could Mary have been born in the East End and pass for a girl from Wales?

Every indication is that she is from distant parts of England or Britain.

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Re: The Life Of Mary Jane Kelly

Post by Karen on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 19:57

To reiterate this again:

The girl who lived in Miller's Court was the Irish Mary Jane O'Brien. She loaned out her room to a friend (Mary Jane Kelly, who was an Welsh girl named Winifred). When the JTR cadre came to kill Mary Jane O'Brien, unbeknownst to them she was staying at the Providence Row Night Refuge.) So JTR killed the Welsh woman and not the Irish woman. The Irish woman, Mary Jane O'Brien, who was pregnant at the time was assisted in her escape to Canada, where she had her daughter and named it Winnifred.

I hope this helps to alleviate the confusion that has amassed over the century and a quarter.

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